Originally posted by rab71
I am interested in the kit, but not to buy one(sorry)... A word of advice.. Im sure you know the reason people own Accents (they're cheap)... I think this is a wonderful idea! many people on here lack the knowledge or capability to build a setup themselves... I know this because I get emailed atleast once a week by people asking me how I did it, and what they would need to do the same...
I am curious as to how you would setup the BOV to not recirculate, and not cause any problems with the MAF? Even though, I have done this, it wasn't without problems,(the ones stated)... Recirculating part of the air? Possibly using a check valve?
Next, what type of manifold are you looking to utilize? will it be a log style made up of weld elbows, and "T's"? An equal length? If so, what thickness is the material being used?
Are the turbo's to be internally, or externally gated? At what boost will the actuator be set if it is to be internally gated? I am assuming internally because an external wastegate was not listed on the parts list...
Is their, or will their be some sort of warranty with these kits? Are all the turbo's used, new, or rebuilt?
Lastly.(I think) I built my original 6psi setup for around $600 or so, including injectors(betas), and MAF... At 6psi, I put down 139whp, and 163ftlbs of torque.... That was with a not the best manifold, and basically no tuning... Running a little lean was 139, richened it up a bit the whp went to 136.9, and the torque was I think 172...
Okay I guess I wasn't done... So I realize my labor costs were NILL' what are yours? In other words, have a better idea of what this may cost, for the poor folks who drive Accents, and want forced induction?
Geez... Oh yeah... What kind of car are you fitting this on again? LC,(2000 and up) or1999, and below) X3??? Theie is a difference in motor configuration...
Thanks! Good luck!
[Edited by rab71 on Jan 13, 2005 6:03 PM]
Let me start out by saying thanks for the questions. I like being able to cover the details people are truely interested in. Now on to the answers.
About the bov and the MAF. The reasons why cars bog down and then start to run pig rich is because of metered air that get's released in the atmosphere. When this happens the computer has already accounted for air coming into the motor and has adjusted the fuel curve accordingly. However since you've already released the air into the atmosphere, it no longer exists Thus you get nothing but fuel dumped into the combustion chamber with hardly any air to burn it... so poof black smoke.. car chokes and sometimes dies.
There are two ways to fix this. first off you can get an entirely new computer. Not a piggy back system but a new computer. This is expensive. Another way to fix this is to vent the air before it get's metered. There are no rules that say the blow off valve have to be after your maf. Alot of factory turbo cars have them after the maf mainly because of 1 thing... they use a draw-through mas air metering system instead of a blow through. which means the meter is before the turbo and the turbo sucks air through it. Blow through is the exact opposite.
Where do you place the bov you ask.. it doesn't matter Typically what you want to make sure is that there is at about 8-10" of straight pipe after it. I find that a few inches after the intercooler is a nice place. It can actually make the blow off valve sound louder to people not in the car with you because the sound will bounce off the ground.
2nd question. What type of manifold am I looking to utilize. Before I get started you have to realize a few things about these motors.. or just about small motor's in general. In a naturally aspirated state these engine's just don't flow alot of air and the turbo's that I mentioned, when in comparison to most other turbos, are really not big at all. You use equal length headers to provide equal flow and to help against turbulant air flow. And usually only use them on large turbo setups. Secondly cost effectiveness. What is going to get you the most bang for your buck. Like you said I know the reason alot of people own an accent (it's the same reason I own one) because they're cheap. Equal length headers cost a substantial amount more to make than log headers. 1 because of the time involved to create them, and secondly because of the amount of bends required to make them.
With all that said to finally answer your question I will make the log headers. The will definatley offer performance over the stock headers in the sense that the piping for them alone will be slightly larger. Also it doesn't take as much as people think to spool a small turbo. These turbo's will be clipped for faster spool time, so that should help quite a bit and help relieve some people's concerns.
3rd question. Wastegates. Again to cut on costs they will be internally gated. Internal gates work on solenoids and vacuum pressure. They also have a spring inside of them. With a aquarium valve.. or just a grainger valve you can adjust the boost anywhere from 7 psi to 20 psi (I've done that on the 14b but never had any desire to push for more since it starts pushing hot air after about 16 psi).
Only warranty would be on the turbo's themselves. And it would not be through me. I would provide people with the appropriate paper work that would come with the turbos. The 14b's would be rebuilds, and the small 16g's would be new. I could not offer warranty on the piping (it's piping I mean there's not a whole lot to it unless you physically try to damage it).. also the intercooler is a difficult item to warranty. If you bottom out to hard then you could create a leak in the aluminum. However luckily this is easily repaired by almost any exhaust shop. They'll pressure test it and can patch the leak for you for a minimum amount (I've had this done myself many times on my lowered eclipse.. needless to say I installed some coil overs instead and left it at factory height).
4th question.. labor costs. This is a good question. I will first put my estimated material costs for the pipes and then the labor costs and then the costs for the turbo and intercoolers.
Estimated costs for the materials should be about including custom flanges.. gaskets.. hoses t-clamps (not regular clamps) piping etc comes close to $600 Alone for a quality very nice looking kit. Now cost could go up or down, I have to shop around really.
Labor is a tough one. I can't really say for sure on that one since I won't know until the first kit is complete. There's also not a kit being mass produced for these cars so it makes even harder to price out. But I'll estimate labor at $500-600
Cost for turbo and intercooler. A small 16g can be had for $570. A rebuilt 14b for probably about $450.
Intercooler can also be had for between $500-700
Throw in your injectors and maf from www.car-part.com. Find a FPR and fuel pump somewhere and you're ready to rock
I'm estimated for a fuel kit you providing your own
all in all I'm going to estimate the kit to be priced at $2500-2600. With you providing your own fuel setup. Which most kits tell you to do anyway. Or the ones that do cost close to 3500.
Just for the piping I'm going to estimate being $1200.
You can find good used mitsu turbos for cheap online in different forum classified sections.
these are not scrap pieces that will be put together.. so there won't be like 50 welds in a 2" stretch.
I'm not sure how you got away with $600 for your entire setup. a t25 on ebay or on a trader forum will go for about $100... walboro fuel pump for a DSM will also go for about that much. Billet BOV, not sure how much those go for. Then you had to make your custom manifold.. all your mandrel bent piping for your intercoolers and such.. the downpipe, injectors, looks like your intercooler is one of those funky ones that ford used.. believe they actually sat on top of the motor, about the same size as a side mount intercooler. I'm not judging you or calling you out but that's really hard to do even if you're picking parts out at the junk yard. I commend you on the good job getting everything done so cheaply. Normally even at the cheapest if I had to buy all that without having stuff laying around my house it still would've cost me around $1000
I used to pick alot of mandrel bent pipe (saabs and audi's) out at the junk yard. The guy would give it to me for free. But the metal had so many impurities alot of times the welds were ugly, the steel would get really nasty colored. A good portion of cost comes from getting the mandrel bends. The ones I use for this kit will be new clean ones.
People who want this kit will get full instructions with pictures. I will also offer installation support through email/AIM to people who buy the kit.
Like I said, for most people I really suggest just the piping, because you can find intercoolers and turbos online used for super cheap. Not to mention if there was another mitsu turbo you wanted to use (t25, 13c, big 16g, t28, 20g, big/killer 16g, any of the frank series turbos.. etc etc) you could use those also.
I won't have a TRUE price until I get the first kit built. However if I don't see a demand for one then I won't even bother. I'll just build my own kit and be done with it. However if there's a demand then I'll go for it.
forgot to mention these will be for 2000 lc's
[Edited by daihashi on Jan 13, 2005 8:53 PM]