different ways of braking?

[monkman33]

ok, lemme let you in on a little secret about setting up for a corner honda boy. in a front wheel drive car, downshifting before entering anypart of the corner is standard to use the engine to slow you do while entering the corner. this leaves your foot on the accellerator and not the brake pedal. in racing, the transition time from foot braking and shifting down after a corner is way too long and will almost always get you passed coming out of a corner. Specifically to front wheel drive cars, transmission braking is very useful since braking gets the weight onto the front wheels for steering through the corner and if you are already in gear and your transmission is doing the braking for you, your foot is already punching the gas coming out of the corner...which is how you drive a front engine, front wheel drive vehicle in "most" cormers. hit the brakes going in, apex early, power out on the furthest amount of straight then you can find. anyways, there are way too many possibilities for different braking styles, I'll go now.

[jerkitt]

hehe.... I wasn't originaly asking about racing... I meant regular driving, and probably should have stated such

either way, monk makes a perfectly good point, which even I knew, having never truly raced on a track :hmmm:

[MechaniX_034]

Aight, lets take a look at a very common situation at a regular racetrack.

Here is Sepang Circuit:

See those turns at the end of the straights? You're gonna be going down those straights very close to the redline while cycling through the gears, at which time you may be travelling at a better than average pace[to say the least] If you apply the technique that Cav has suggested and use the engine brake to slow the car, you will still have a longer overall braking/slowing distance than a driver who is approaching the corner on his brakes and downshifting as per the usual methods.

Congratulations, you have been out-braked.

If the engine brake is applied too severely and you cycle down through the gears too quickly the wheel speed will plummet as soon as you dump the clutch.

Congratulations again, you have spun out.

If somehow you manage to keep the wheels in traction and still be ahead of the other guy, you'll enter the turn and exit at a gear too low; going back to 2nd was necessary to slow the car for a 3rd gear turn, and on the exit you're gonna have to build the revs again in order to get to third and then to fourth while the other guy has already topped out his revs on the exit and is already midway through his powerband in 4th and going for 5th, if not 6th. This of course takes for granted that both cars are identical.

Happy, happy, joy, joy. You were out of gear for the corner exit and will now have to play the late-brake game to catch the guy in front of you.

Hope that helped guys, Cav this was not meant as an attack on you in any way, and if it sounded like one, I apologise unreservedly. Jus seems to be the most efective way of getting the message across.

[91cavgt]

MechaniX_034, no offense taken. I just didn't explain myself thuroughly enough.

I never use downshifting as a means of slowing the car down on the streets. On the track I do use downshifting(depending on the corner), but in combination with braking upon entry to the corner. By the time I am initiating the corner, I am already off of the brakes and on the gas.

But if I just brake and don't downshift(where needed) then I end up downshifting in the middle of a corner which is a big no no and the car gets squirly and I get passed.

I made the mistake of braking deep while cornering at Hallett Raceway( www.hallettracing.com ) and ended up facing the wrong direction in the grass after the rear of the car spun out! Luckily for me, there is tons of runoff room at every corner of that track. A VERY nice track for a first driver's education event!

[MechaniX_034]

We didnt have tracks back home so I got cones, chalk and a ton of diesel in the rain, LMAO couldnt get out of the car cuz my knees were banging together!:lol::lol::lol:

BTW what do they charge for an education event over there?:hmmm:

[qtiger]

Thanks, Mechanix, I cannot explain racing technique to save my life. :ermm:

Originally posted by monkman33
[body]
ok, lemme let you in on a little secret about setting up for a corner honda boy. in a front wheel drive car, downshifting before entering anypart of the corner is standard to use the engine to slow you do while entering the corner. this leaves your foot on the accellerator and not the brake pedal. in racing, the transition time from foot braking and shifting down after a corner is way too long and will almost always get you passed coming out of a corner. Specifically to front wheel drive cars, transmission braking is very useful since braking gets the weight onto the front wheels for steering through the corner and if you are already in gear and your transmission is doing the braking for you, your foot is already punching the gas coming out of the corner...which is how you drive a front engine, front wheel drive vehicle in "most" cormers. hit the brakes going in, apex early, power out on the furthest amount of straight then you can find. anyways, there are way too many possibilities for different braking styles, I'll go now.
[/body]

Starting out by being condencending is always a good way to get your point across. By the way, a well executed heel toe will allow you to shift AFTER braking and BEFORE corner entry, so that you can power out of the corner right after you pass the apex.

Of course this doesn't apply if you are trail braking.

Originally posted by 91cavgt
[body]
I never use downshifting as a means of slowing the car down on the streets. On the track I do use downshifting(depending on the corner), but in combination with braking upon entry to the corner. By the time I am initiating the corner, I am already off of the brakes and on the gas.

But if I just brake and don't downshift(where needed) then I end up downshifting in the middle of a corner which is a big no no and the car gets squirly and I get passed.

I made the mistake of braking deep while cornering at Hallett Raceway( www.hallettracing.com ) and ended up facing the wrong direction in the grass after the rear of the car spun out! Luckily for me, there is tons of runoff room at every corner of that track. A VERY nice track for a first driver's education event![/body]

As a driver you should be more concerned with shifting at a point where it disrupts the car least and less with engine braking. Obviously where you shift will vary dramatically with car setup.

[Edited by qtiger on Feb 21, 2003 9:06 AM]

[91cavgt]

MechaniX_034, I usually pay about $200(US) to $250(US) for a full weekend(Saturday and Sunday). For a one day event, prices range from $150(US) to $250(US).

The big clubs usually have the 2 day events which is why they are cheaper in the long run. The smaller, more elite clubs have one day events and usually won't allow just anyone to participate in them. Luckily for me, I have connections in the Porche club, BMW club, and the Nissan Z club!!

qtiger, the only car I have driven on the track has been my 02 Accent GS(if you don't count high speed autocrosses). It is pretty much 100% stock and gets upset very easy if you do anything while not going straight. I went off track twice at my first DE event. Once was because I braked too late and was still braking while turning, and once was going around a high speed 90 too fast(70 mph when I should have been at no more than 65 mph). Around the 90 degree turn, the tail of the car broke free and sent the car into a 4 wheel drift. I didn't try to save it. I just let it go about 15 feet off the track and on to the grass!!

[qtiger]

You're lucky you had grass not a tire wall. 8D