Hyundai Forum: Hyundai Performance Forum banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am working on having a new damper and pulley assembly made for the Beta engine, it will be a friction damper, similar to how a silicone damper functions. It will be a true damper unlike the OEM Hyundai unit.
Normally a damper isn't required on a stock 4 cyl., but the way you guys are talking of boosting, it may be a good idea. Due to the extremely high cylinder pressure you will encounter, and being these will be daily driven vehicles. I'm building it for my soon to be heavy nitrous use, to keep up with the turbos.
If you would be interested let me know. The price should be around $400.00.


<hr noshade width=60% size=1 align=left><img src="http://d21c.com/marti/auto/smokem.gif" border=0>

Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 01/28/2002 8:18:07 PM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,675 Posts
hmmmm, Can someone with more knowledge, speak on this? Random? Spoolin?<img src=/images/forums/snitz/thumbup.gif width=25 height=18 border=0>


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>"Awwww! Gawd damn! My "H" is gone, Whats the point of owning a Hyundai if ya cant show it off?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I feel I have plenty of knowledge regarding engine dynamics, I work extensively with TVA. The so called damper that Hyundai uses doesn't fucntion to dampen the harmonics sufficently. In order for it to function it would have to have a free inertial mass. With the HP that some people are talking the dynamic strains placed on the crank will increase dramatically. The best way for me to describe crank torsionals is similar to Newton Third Law "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Well the crank actions are crank torsionals, the twisting of the crank. The severety of the twisting is dependant upon the resonant frequency and the force applied on the component. More force applied to the crank more twisting, the damper serves to cushion some of the twisting, by lessoning the severety of the shock to the crank. Thats why I had the idea that some people may be interested in one. I only post on topics that I am sure that I know a lot about. I don't just respond to topics to increase my post numbers.



<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left><img src="http://d21c.com/marti/auto/smokem.gif" border=0>

Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 01/29/2002 8:36:01 PM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,316 Posts
I would take HRD's advice right up there with Red and Random's.

He knows what he's talking about.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>"Hey, if my prize is your foot up my arse... its still a prize.... " - <b>WhoopOi</b>

<a href="http://shop.hyundaiperformance.com">Shop.HyundaiPerformance.Com</a>, your one-stop shop for Hyundai performance parts (coming soon)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Just for my own interests sake. How do you work out the mass that should be placed on the end of the crank to sufficiently dampen the vibration. Is it a 'rule-of-thumb' kind of thing or more precise?


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,675 Posts
I know what a dampener does, I just am not aware of how well hyundais works, and if an aftermarket one could help.

I am sorry if you took offense to me doubting, your name just is not familiar with me.



<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>"Awwww! Gawd damn! My "H" is gone, Whats the point of owning a Hyundai if ya cant show it off?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
On a stock Hyundai engine adding a damper similar to the one I am going to have made wouldn't add much. The factory elastomer dampers are on there to shift naturally frequencies or to provide an anti-resonance at a particular frequency. If your adding a aluminum flywheel, it may help dampen some higher frequencies, the light flywheel will drive frequencies higher. The kind of damper that I am discussing here is often called a Houdaille damper, these dampers dissipate vibratory energy, the end product is the heat rejection. This will be a untuned damper which does a better job at dampening. As far as calculating seismic mass(inertial mass), it not just a shot in the dark type design, it takes a lot of mathmatical and cell time.

The developement of damper takes a lot of work with TVA(Torsional Vibration Analysis) software and a lot of engine cell time. When doing the software route, you input different dampening variables into your model of the rotating assembly. Most companies do have a rough idea after all the years of building engines what size viscous damper will work with what application, on occasion they will get it wrong or the customer will use a engine for application that the damper wasn't designed to deal with, like a gas compressor in a gas field. The tuned dampers are the difficult one to development, sometimes a viscous and a elastomer will be run together to move a resonant frequency out of the operating range. This damper is using the same size seismic ring as what a Mitsu 2.0ltr would use. That was the easiest route to go.




<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
Holy shyt, you're way over my head<img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0><img src=/images/forums/snitz/thumbup.gif width=25 height=18 border=0> I understand a few pieces of the principles you're naming and I can kinda roughly go over the other stuff.

Bah, so what's the lowdown? Are these gonna be lighter while not screwing with your harmonics? (ie underdrive pulleys without the problems?)

Sometimes I get a little technical, but damn man you just whooped me <img src=/images/forums/snitz/wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>

-Red-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
They may be the same weight or a just little heavier than the stock pulley assembly and will be stock pulley diameter. They are a dry friction damper, the inerta ring is sandwiched between a friction material. The company that will build it, has built race dampers for some of the fastest drag honda's.
As far as engine harmonics go, it will only help. There has been times that installing a correct damper will quiet some of the engine noise, from the oil pump, gear train and etc. Because of the damper being able to dampen out resonant freq. When you floor your hyundai and at a certain RPM something will buzz in the interior, that a resonant freq. causing it. It is similar to what happens inside you engine, this is what is damaging to components.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left><img src="http://d21c.com/marti/auto/smokem.gif" border=0>

Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 01/30/2002 7:11:11 PM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
Makes sense. It would make sense that more power created per-stroke will raise the amplitude of those harmonic vibrations in the rotating assembly. (Same frequency, but more power...) That being the case, a better designed dampener, although not necessarily heavier, could result in prolonged engine life due to lesser harmonic damage to the bearings.

I wonder though, if the amount of dampening is very specific to the car... Joel's Starion is one big bad mofo (2.6L stock displacement inline 4-banger) and these things put up with insane amounts of power. Then there's the other side of the spectrum: Mitsu Eclipse (2.0L stock displacement i4) and they also put up with a horrendous amount of power.

But I also know that harmonics are no-way linked to engine displacement but instead geometery and materials.

Time to do some research, now you've got me interested... <img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>-Red-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The amplitudes of the torsional vibrations to increase with the power output. Dampening is very specific to the engine and the application for which it is being used..

The angular displacement of the of the crank is dependent on the force and frequency of the excitation. Angular displacement and natural frequency of the crank go hand and hand. You can have a heavily boosted engine that will stress the crank, but its the firing frequency that is a must know and the natural frequency of the crank. If the firing frequency lines up with the cranks natural frequency, then the component will be short lived. The tuned dampers are designed to help dampen out or shift the cranks natural frequency . When increasing the cylinder pressure you increase the amplitude of the frequency. When we look at torsional data, it is order tracks we plot it in. A order is what happens every revolution of the crank, on a four cylinder a 2nd order is a firing order. When you change rods or pistons you change the natural frequency of the crank, you may shift it rite into the firing frequency. The polar moment of inerta is also changed, by changing pistons and rods.

One thing in common about the turbo engines that you mentioned Red, is that they are a factory designed and built turbo engine. The hyundai wasn't designed to deal with the turbo. Most four cylinders do not require a damper in stock form, some do have a elastomer damper that helps dampen some resonant vibration, but is not designed for any increased amplitudes. The four cylinder cranks are relatively stiff, due to there short length and small displacement.

I can’t say for 100% percent that you will need a new damper, I have never done any testing on a Hyundai four cylinder. It may live for 200,000 miles, but then again it may live for 2,000 miles, it’s a unknown for me. Sometimes torsional vibration won’t always break a crank, but you may see excessive wear in the oil pump, transmission, broke valve springs, and etc. The amplitude of the resonant vibration is what kills in a short amount of time.

To conclude, the severity of torsional vibrations and shear stresses caused by torsional vibration depends on many parameters: operating speed, torsional natural frequencies, lateral natural frequencies and mode shapes of the shaft system, system damping characteristics, and any excitation frequencies produced by torque fluctuations. To add here I am considering taking some torsional measurements on a hyundai four cylinder, a friend of mine from work has a copy of MatLab with the Hilbert Transform, if I can get a hold of DAT recorder I may be able to get it done. It will take some time though.

I have enclosed a link that has some torsional pictures and how a torsional pickup is setup.


http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/tiburontropic/lst?.dir=/Torsionals



Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 02/01/2002 9:58:28 PM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I am currently working on gettting the damper built


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left><img src="http://d21c.com/marti/auto/smokem.gif" border=0>

Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 02/02/2002 2:47:24 PM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
How many people would be truely interested in getting a damper. If I know how many people I can call them and see what kind of price they would shoot me.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left><img src="http://d21c.com/marti/auto/smokem.gif"></img>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
Alright, I see you edited your previous post to include diagrams of the physics involved. Unfortunately, I was expecting diagrams of the physics involved with the damper assembly, not with torsional / shearing loads on the crank, calculated deflection based on torsional load and whatever you were showing with the sprocket with the reluctor assemblies.

I already understand the physics involved with creating the stresses... I want to know how this damper actually reduces them. Any diagrams to that effect?

Thanks,
-Red-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Here is a link to a company by the name of Hasse&Wrede(pronounced Hasse&Frede) they build some of the dampers for our engines. They describe how a viscous damper work, the damper I am having build is call a clutch brake damper it functions the same way. It has a cut away of a viscous damper and describes it function. Before I'll let anyone buy one or get one I am going to try it first to make sure the companies quality is up to parr. A friction damper dampen by amplitude not by frequency such as a elastomer damper, thats why changing mass doesn't affect the friction dampeners ability to dampen.

http://www.knorr-bremse.de/de/hw_en/company120/6pro/611.html

Here is some more info on torsionals, Red.

http://www.avl.com/internet2000/pdf...Product_Description/BRICKS_CrkTorsVibCal2.pdf

Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 02/05/2002 3:21:35 PM

Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 02/05/2002 3:47:45 PM
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
That's cool software, is that what you're using for supplying suggestions for the prototype? Also the description page on the damper assembly is nice, now I understand what they're doing (pretty ingenious concept)

I'm certainly a lot more interested than I was, but I'm not 100% sure that I'm ready to spend $400 on it. I guess I still need to do more research and find some folks that have used this sort of design before and how they liked it.

-Red-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
138 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The software that we use at work is propriatary software just for our company, we build are own engine development software programs. That AVL software is about $6000.00 US dollars. For me to do a complete damper design it would cost me thousands of dollars. The company already has proven exsisting damper designs, I am just going to suggest certain changes to the design. They have been building these dampers for around 20 years. I am calling tomorrow and talk one more time to talk with one of the design engineers. I hate when you call to get some info and get somebody that knows nothing on the phone, that happens with every company I have called to get parts built, its usually the secretary.
Let me get one first and I'll get pics and post them so that you can see what it looks like. I am going to use the same inertial mass as 2.0ltr Mitsu, the mass of the rotating assembly should be similar, it isn't as critical to get a friction damper perfect, as it is with a elastomer damper. Unlike a lot of people I am not going to recommend anything until I make sure it is good.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left><img src="http://d21c.com/marti/auto/smokem.gif"></img>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,675 Posts
I am interested, but I just dont have $400 right now :)


hey red, whatever happen to those differentials from quiaffe, that u start a group buy on back on fxtreme?


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>"Awwww! Gawd damn! My "H" is gone, Whats the point of owning a Hyundai if ya cant show it off?
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top