The engine will not get hot enough to evaporate condensation in your crankcase with the thermostat completely removed. On a race car, this isn't a problem due to the frequency of rebuilds. On a street car, this is bad.
So why not remove the thermostat? Seriously though...
... am I missing something? You're placing a bimetallic obstruction inside your engine that opens up when the coolant inside the motor becomes hot enough to dissipate that heat by convection to the copper plate opening on the end of a wound spring, which then allows some coolant to gradually pass through it until it opens up all the way, (which is still roughly 40% of the thermostat housing's diameter, therefore impeding flow) maintaining an elevated temperature. And that's a run on sentence if ever I did write one.
Now then, ASSUMING YOU DO NOT RUN THE CAR IN THE WINTER (and assuming you possess the necessary gray matter to read and understand the following) what the hell are you accomplsihing by keeping a thermostat inside the IM? (or wherever it's located)
Benefits:
-Engine stays cooler longer. This, as supported by elementary thermodynamics, keeps heat transfer up, which in turn minimizes the heat "stretch" properties (the rate of expansion of Al vs that of Fe) of an aluminum block vs an Iron block. Therefore, less possibility of head warpage and head gasket leaks.
-Water pump impellers move freely, which then is easy to imagine, causes less cavitation when the thermostat is closed. Free moving water pump = less drag on belt system. If you can't make the connection here then, buy a honda and apply yellow stickers liberally.
-Without a thermostat, the likelyhood of a thermostat failing closed is, well, quite impossible. And what is the number one reason for cars overheating?
-Cooler coolant flowing through the TB is also a good thing: YOu want to admit more cold, dense air into the intake stream. YOu could of course block off the coolant passage to the IM.
Before you guys get all riled up, I assure you that I am not an idiot. I know why the thermostat is in a car, and I know what the lack of it does during cold weather, when heat is actually beneficial to the motor. All I'm saying is the whole point of a "performance" thermostat (I'm assuming it is also painted a nice shade of bumble bee yellow) is to admit more coolant through itself, therefore inceasing the amount of gal/min (or hr) and reducing the strain on the impeller seals and bearings.
So why not just remove it entirely if you do not experience drastic temperature changes?
Now then, ASSUMING YOU DO NOT RUN THE CAR IN THE WINTER (and assuming you possess the necessary gray matter to read and understand the following) what the hell are you accomplsihing by keeping a thermostat inside the IM? (or wherever it's located)
Benefits:
-Engine stays cooler longer. This, as supported by elementary thermodynamics, keeps heat transfer up, which in turn minimizes the heat "stretch" properties (the rate of expansion of Al vs that of Fe) of an aluminum block vs an Iron block. Therefore, less possibility of head warpage and head gasket leaks.
-Water pump impellers move freely, which then is easy to imagine, causes less cavitation when the thermostat is closed. Free moving water pump = less drag on belt system. If you can't make the connection here then, buy a honda and apply yellow stickers liberally.
-Without a thermostat, the likelyhood of a thermostat failing closed is, well, quite impossible. And what is the number one reason for cars overheating?
-Cooler coolant flowing through the TB is also a good thing: YOu want to admit more cold, dense air into the intake stream. YOu could of course block off the coolant passage to the IM.
Before you guys get all riled up, I assure you that I am not an idiot. I know why the thermostat is in a car, and I know what the lack of it does during cold weather, when heat is actually beneficial to the motor. All I'm saying is the whole point of a "performance" thermostat (I'm assuming it is also painted a nice shade of bumble bee yellow) is to admit more coolant through itself, therefore inceasing the amount of gal/min (or hr) and reducing the strain on the impeller seals and bearings.
So why not just remove it entirely if you do not experience drastic temperature changes?
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Trust me, it gets hot enough. I have an accurate temperatrue gauge that does not indicate in colors. it usually runs between 70-90 cels.
I have a very intricate blow through system with three independent cross-flowing sections as well as a very large blow by (5x the size of a puny PCV system) without an oil catch can.
I'm not worried about condensation.
[Edited by Jed118 on Jul 3, 2006 1:08 PM]
I have a very intricate blow through system with three independent cross-flowing sections as well as a very large blow by (5x the size of a puny PCV system) without an oil catch can.
I'm not worried about condensation.
[Edited by Jed118 on Jul 3, 2006 1:08 PM]
I understand that by keeping something cooler longer the heat transfer is higher, BUT. If you have an aluminum head matched to an iron block I would think they would size/shape them so they would work together better at "normal" operating temperature. If you keep it below that range for alot longer and get on it. Wouldn't that cause a highly unbalanced heat distribution problem? In other words areas very very close too the cyl vs. parts of the head further away. Maybe my logic is a little skewed on that one. That’s the reason I’ve always heard no thermo is a bad idea. The aluminum head and iron block not "matching size" soon enough due to the different properties of each and problems with heat variance. All that putting more stress on the head gasket.[body]Engine stays cooler longer. This, as supported by elementary thermodynamics, keeps heat transfer up, which in turn minimizes the heat "stretch" properties (the rate of expansion of Al vs that of Fe) of an aluminum block vs an Iron block. Therefore, less possibility of head warpage and head gasket leaks.[/body]
its like no back pressure with exhaust.....has to be some resistance to equal it out.....its like straight pipe'n a car....any car needs a certain amount of heat......performance thermostat is the only option for more flow....if you just remove it, it will not be good for the engine....
Also wouldn't it take longer for the comp to switch to closed loop, from open loop resulting in a richer air/fuel mixture and poor gas milage?
Valid points, however, as I have stated earlier, my car only takes a few more minutes to reach operating temperature then with a thermostat.
I recall why however, I have a SLIGHTLY smaller than stock rad. I will try this theory out in a stock-equipped Pony.
Keep in mind guys, the engine is 20 years old and works fine. Also there is no computer at all in it. Anywhere.
That temperature variance is greater than any that could be caused by a non-thermostat condition at any time.
We need Mechanix's input here. He should be able to clarify this.
[Edited by Jed118 on Jul 3, 2006 11:59 PM]
I recall why however, I have a SLIGHTLY smaller than stock rad. I will try this theory out in a stock-equipped Pony.
Keep in mind guys, the engine is 20 years old and works fine. Also there is no computer at all in it. Anywhere.
What about in sub-zero temperatures? The engine begins heating up VERY fast, the aluminum head directly from the explosions and the iron manifold retains that heat WAY before the block can have any heat dissipated to it.[body]would think they would size/shape them so they would work together better at "normal" operating temperature. If you keep it below that range for alot longer and get on it. Wouldn't that cause a highly unbalanced heat distribution problem?[/body]
That temperature variance is greater than any that could be caused by a non-thermostat condition at any time.
We need Mechanix's input here. He should be able to clarify this.
[Edited by Jed118 on Jul 3, 2006 11:59 PM]
good point. I dont have to worry about that much here in South East Texas, heh, but think about this... even 80 degrees (F) is still relativly low when compared to what an engine runs at normally. I think that problem is semi-solved by extended warm ups when its cold out. My car lets me know when its ready to go with its idle. Itll get pissy if I move it before the idle drops to normal. :ermm:
Yeah, same idea here. I HAVE to warm it up, I can't even cheat and do it for 15 seconds on full choke anymore... the race cam I have, if even the slightest bit of choke is added, the car simply will not run. It's allready that starved for fuel. This makes warm ups terrible.
Also, the vibration from this cam has loosened my oil drain plug!
This is going to be a fun car to drive! :lol:
Also, the vibration from this cam has loosened my oil drain plug!
This is going to be a fun car to drive! :lol:
you will never see this with your pony but I had a mid 90's pontiac grand am with the t-stat removed the engine would actualy overheat while driving. It turns out the radiator was small enough that the t-stat slowed the coolant flow down enough to give it time to cool in the radiator but with it removed the coolant flowed so quickly it didn't have time to remove the heat before it flowed back into the engine
If you didn't need it then why does the factory put it in there? One reason is to meet emissions. Faster warm up less fuel used less polution.. You noted you have a smaller then OE radiator.. You are doing the same thing by limiting the amount of heat transfer to the air with the small radiator.. You might be able to get away with no thermostat. Ane since you don't have a computer then it doesn't really matter..Dump all the fuel you want.. You don't have catalysts to burn out or O2 sensors that like heat to operate correctly.. I'm sure the engineers at Hyundai and other companys have figured out the rate of expansion and contraction with the heat. So the head isn't going to warp or blow a head gasket under normal operation.. Hynundai really doesn't have any issues with head gaskets.. Performance thermostat is usually a thermostat made by another company that usually flows more coolant at a lower temp.. Some performance thermostats even are build alittle back wards so they don't stick to the close.. They stick open if they fail.. The OEM Hyundai thermostats are huge anyways.. Not sure why you would need a bigger one.. lol..
Well.. your heater wont work. 
:
I dont think there is anything wrong with it. And from what ive heard, the way Jed drives, that is a race car.
:I dont think there is anything wrong with it. And from what ive heard, the way Jed drives, that is a race car.
The heater will work just fine as long as the coolant is warm, which it is.
I have stated why manufacturers put the tstat in place. How does it meet emissions? I have a return line, whatever fuel that doesn't get past the float valve gets returned into the tank.
Overheated WITHOUT a thermostat? Bro your cores were cluttered with tap-water residuals (such lime and calcium). Not my fault you added tap water and clogged the cores... :hmmm:
[Edited by Jed118 on Jul 6, 2006 12:20 AM]
I have stated why manufacturers put the tstat in place. How does it meet emissions? I have a return line, whatever fuel that doesn't get past the float valve gets returned into the tank.
Overheated WITHOUT a thermostat? Bro your cores were cluttered with tap-water residuals (such lime and calcium). Not my fault you added tap water and clogged the cores... :hmmm:
[Edited by Jed118 on Jul 6, 2006 12:20 AM]
Your PCV system has no effect on condensation. Condensation occurs after the engine is shut off, not while it's running. 90 C is only 194 F, not hot enough to evaporate the water in your crankcase. Coolant temps on almost any gas automobile should be about 200-260 F. The reason why you need a thermostat is the same as why you need to change your oil more often if you only take short trips. You don't want water contaminating your oil. With only short trips, water in your crankcase doesn't have enough time to evaporate. Without a thermostat, it doesn't get hot enough no matter how long you drive it.Originally posted by Jed118
[body]
Trust me, it gets hot enough. I have an accurate temperatrue gauge that does not indicate in colors. it usually runs between 70-90 cels.
I have a very intricate blow through system with three independent cross-flowing sections as well as a very large blow by (5x the size of a puny PCV system) without an oil catch can.
I'm not worried about condensation.
[/body]
I understand, but when I shut off, there's residual thermal energy "trapped" in the crankcase. I have a mechanical gauge, so by the time I start the car after it running, it birefly goes to 120 deg and then when the coolant from the rad flows by the probe it drops to 70, then goes to 90 and stays there.
I don't think there are ANY adverse reprecussions due to removing a thermostat... at least on a 1984 4G16 Nissan Micra double-core equipped Pony.
I could be wrong for stock cars, I don't know.
Until I do the same test on a stock Pony, I consider this debate at it's end.
I don't think there are ANY adverse reprecussions due to removing a thermostat... at least on a 1984 4G16 Nissan Micra double-core equipped Pony.
I could be wrong for stock cars, I don't know.
Until I do the same test on a stock Pony, I consider this debate at it's end.
There are 2 main reasons why you need to run a thermostat.
1. The condensation issue already covered. While in your situation you may be elevating your temperature to above boiling for a long enough period to evaporate all water from your crankcase and evacuate it odds are that you are not. Even if you are that is not generally the case in most cars.
2. Heat differential. In a perfect world your engine block and head would be at a constant temperature throughout but obviously in an engine it doesn't work that way. Running at coolant temperatures below 190 degrees F or so is detrimental because the temperature very near the combustion event is going to basically be constant regardless of the coolant temperature. As you well know metals expand based on temperature. Expansion is not harmful to metals by itself at all. Expanding at differing rates however is. The more heat differential you have the worse it is and the more likely you are to end up with warping or cracking. Your temperature range will also go up and down much more dramatically during a drive than it would with a thermostat adding to the problem with all those extra heat cycles.
I can't say for your car in particular but usually it is not a good thing to run a 160 degree thermostat and even worse to run without one at all. If your car runs hot enough without a thermostat to be within normal operating temperature usually that means you have an undersized cooling system or some underlying engine problem. My Bronco ran at 145 degrees at idle and got up to about 200 degrees when driving fairly hard when I had no thermostat for a day. With my 180 degree thermostat it stays between 180 degrees and 230 degrees.
1. The condensation issue already covered. While in your situation you may be elevating your temperature to above boiling for a long enough period to evaporate all water from your crankcase and evacuate it odds are that you are not. Even if you are that is not generally the case in most cars.
2. Heat differential. In a perfect world your engine block and head would be at a constant temperature throughout but obviously in an engine it doesn't work that way. Running at coolant temperatures below 190 degrees F or so is detrimental because the temperature very near the combustion event is going to basically be constant regardless of the coolant temperature. As you well know metals expand based on temperature. Expansion is not harmful to metals by itself at all. Expanding at differing rates however is. The more heat differential you have the worse it is and the more likely you are to end up with warping or cracking. Your temperature range will also go up and down much more dramatically during a drive than it would with a thermostat adding to the problem with all those extra heat cycles.
I can't say for your car in particular but usually it is not a good thing to run a 160 degree thermostat and even worse to run without one at all. If your car runs hot enough without a thermostat to be within normal operating temperature usually that means you have an undersized cooling system or some underlying engine problem. My Bronco ran at 145 degrees at idle and got up to about 200 degrees when driving fairly hard when I had no thermostat for a day. With my 180 degree thermostat it stays between 180 degrees and 230 degrees.
don't performance thermostat's have a softer spring to lessen the tension on the thermostat valve?
when i had my POS Kia sephia, the car was overheating crazy, the mechanic sugested i replace it with a toyota thermostat which has a softer spring compared to the POS Kia Thermostat which had a stiff spring..therefore allowing more coolant under pressure.
after that, my kia never ever overheated again.
when i had my POS Kia sephia, the car was overheating crazy, the mechanic sugested i replace it with a toyota thermostat which has a softer spring compared to the POS Kia Thermostat which had a stiff spring..therefore allowing more coolant under pressure.
after that, my kia never ever overheated again.
I will be damned if this is not the most intellengent and best spelled batch of post I have ever read here.
Engines need something called "normal operating temperature" A thermostat ensures that the engine reaches this preset temperature as quickly as possible. Once it happens it is the cooling systems responsability to maintain this temperature, and if the temperature starts to drop the thermostat starts to close to restrict flow to bring temperatures down. that is the ONLY function of a thermostat.
If a thermostat is removed the engine may not ever reach operating temperature, or take excessive time to reach it. This causes incomplete combustion, and will actually make your car fail emissions. Not only that but by removing the "obstruction" in your cooling system you have just increased the flow of coolant to the point where it moves so fast it has no time to absorb/ dissapate heat from the cylinder head and block. so when you do decide to run your car hard, **** will start to overheat, and there is nothing the cooling system can do to cool it down. If you are lucky enough to have an automatic transmission, the cooler lines run through the radiator tanks, and maybe even the powersteering cooler lines run on the opossite tank. So while youre heating up the tranny, and powersteering fluid, it inturn heats the coolant and its flowing so fast that it cannot dissapate the heat. So now you are overheating the entire powertrain.
Racing machines do not apply because they are built to run at a preset set of conditions and the cooling system is specifically designed to handle it all.
Normal cars, unless they are ungodly modified will do no benefit, and have the potential to destroy realy expensive machined parts.
Ive seen it 2004 GMC sierra, thing had a tendency to over heat when pulling loads, decides to take the thermostat out, came in in a tow truck with blown head gaskets , warped intake manifold, and ended up having warped heads, as well as overheated the tranny.
so go ahead, take your thermostat out, smaller lower powered engines may not blow up like that, but it will cause incoplete combustion, fluctuating temperatures and if it gets too cold there is nothing the motor can do to compensate.
so people t hat live in the cold climate, your car will run like ****, cold start problems, injectors varnishing up, carbon build up and all that good stuff.
:smoking:
If a thermostat is removed the engine may not ever reach operating temperature, or take excessive time to reach it. This causes incomplete combustion, and will actually make your car fail emissions. Not only that but by removing the "obstruction" in your cooling system you have just increased the flow of coolant to the point where it moves so fast it has no time to absorb/ dissapate heat from the cylinder head and block. so when you do decide to run your car hard, **** will start to overheat, and there is nothing the cooling system can do to cool it down. If you are lucky enough to have an automatic transmission, the cooler lines run through the radiator tanks, and maybe even the powersteering cooler lines run on the opossite tank. So while youre heating up the tranny, and powersteering fluid, it inturn heats the coolant and its flowing so fast that it cannot dissapate the heat. So now you are overheating the entire powertrain.
Racing machines do not apply because they are built to run at a preset set of conditions and the cooling system is specifically designed to handle it all.
Normal cars, unless they are ungodly modified will do no benefit, and have the potential to destroy realy expensive machined parts.
Ive seen it 2004 GMC sierra, thing had a tendency to over heat when pulling loads, decides to take the thermostat out, came in in a tow truck with blown head gaskets , warped intake manifold, and ended up having warped heads, as well as overheated the tranny.
so go ahead, take your thermostat out, smaller lower powered engines may not blow up like that, but it will cause incoplete combustion, fluctuating temperatures and if it gets too cold there is nothing the motor can do to compensate.
so people t hat live in the cold climate, your car will run like ****, cold start problems, injectors varnishing up, carbon build up and all that good stuff.
:smoking:
leave the thermo in.
yeah, my vw that was fully built, 252 hp at the wheels on a 1.8 8v needed like 3 to 5 minutes to warm up before I could drive it. never had to worry about it being stolen lol (loud exhaust). Start it, give it gas, it dies, let it idle by fluctuating the idle just a hair to keep it running until it warmed up, once warm, purred like a kitten, well, a loping kitten that has bowling sized balls lol. neighbors hated that dam car, one bought a new muffler for it, I had to return it telling him the flowmaster was brand new..
yeah, my vw that was fully built, 252 hp at the wheels on a 1.8 8v needed like 3 to 5 minutes to warm up before I could drive it. never had to worry about it being stolen lol (loud exhaust). Start it, give it gas, it dies, let it idle by fluctuating the idle just a hair to keep it running until it warmed up, once warm, purred like a kitten, well, a loping kitten that has bowling sized balls lol. neighbors hated that dam car, one bought a new muffler for it, I had to return it telling him the flowmaster was brand new..
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