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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Head:



Block:



Dutty, dutty pistons!




I can use the AC bracket to fashion a S/C application (first thing's first: get it put together)




DOHC 2.4L Pony? Yes, yes, why eee ess!

Turns out the G54B totally does not align with the coolant passages, nor do the domes lign up to the cylinders. Also, SOHC VS DOHC is what gave it away for me personally when I looked at a 84 Aries (using said G54B) at a wreckers. Thanks for the guys at G54B.com for clarifying that I cannot use that engine/head combo. They do however continue to be useful for mating a trans that will work with this (I suspect a pony trans will last about 2.3 days before some gear shearing takes place).

Cost so far: Block: $60 (spins) 170KM, head: $80 (spins) 240KM. At this point, a galant timing belt set and galant timing gears (not TOTALLY necessary) and a new headgasket and I allready have 180HP and close to 200 ft lbs.

But!

Planned mods: JG or Wiseco pistons: $500 (8.5:1) DKS (HKS regrind) intake cam 272, (about $350 for intake/exh set, so half that per cam) adj. cam gears ($140 ebay) 5 angle valve job + .030 shave from head (about $350, I know a good guy) Port match, port + polish intake runners + domes (free I'm doing it) lightened 4G63 flywheel (or Beta, if it fits, it can be seen in the first pic, also it is cheaper) some good clutch (unknown at this point - flywheel dependent) a nice set of lightweight and strong springs, and good lifters (these are mechanical rollers!!! I love this head!! NO HLA!!), a silent shaft eliminator kit (it adds about 8 pounds to the engine, and introduces parasitic losses at the expense of a smooth idle, whatever)

Intake: TWO of these!






These are 34mm ports. There will be 2x 2BBL carbs!! :D!!!11!one!

Rochester DualJet 210's.These things power 305's. I will have to fab up a plate that connects the Elantra 1.8L IM ports to these carbs. I will also have to detune the **** out of them, for instant throttle response and then a progressive increase. These have no secondaries, so it might bog at low RPM at WOT.

The reason I'm doing this: S/C upgrade in the future, 4-5 pounds tops. The only thing I will need to complete this upgrade is DKS exhaust cam, and a good degreeing of the whole setup. I will also have to make a sealed intake (NO problem there, all I need is two air cleaner housings, a bit of brazing, and some sealing) and some upgrades to the jets. Also, fabricating linkages for two carburators is definitely going to be HUGELY time-consuming, but it won't cost much (just time)

I have NOT forseen the exhaust at all, I was thinking a 4-1, but looking at some DSM stuff, I think I can use the 4-2 part, then make something work from the 2-1 part onwards myself with some GM collectors.

I will also have to find a way to use the regular MSD with that stupid coil-wannabe sensor that sends to a coilpack...

I will say, for all the unforseen things (bracket fab, trans milling, driveshaft creation and balancing, brake booster/prop valve issues, etc) I'm gonna allocate $2,000.

For now, the engine buildup will commence! It will not be fast though, I have 2 jobs and full time school. Once the engine is assembled (I hope my March) I will work on the IM and the exhaust. Hopefully by HS 2008, I will have the N/A part down, complete with Mustang 8.8 rearend and a hybrid 03-55L trans mated to a 5spd 2.8-3.1 camaro (third gen) trans.

I'll just be happy with the COMPLETE engine by mid summer. We'll see. For now I must dismantle the engine.
 

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That thing will be a beast when you get done. I wish you lived closer because I would love to help. Just out of curiousity how high can the engine rev safely? Thats some nice carbon build up you got there. I hope you are not working on it in a parking garage ;)
 

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Yeah i would totally love to help too.


I have a 9inch rear end sitting in my back yard. Its a narrow one from a mid 60's ford falcon. Better than the 8.8, just pull the third member and you can have any gear ratio you want.

throttle will be easy. The throttles should have both a cable hook up and a ball and shaft connection. Run the cable to the first one, and then the ball and shaft to the other, that way you can adjust it too.

You might also want to think about running the carbs in sequance. Having only one for normal use, and having the other open up at more than say 50% throttle and opening all the way at 100% then you have no low end bog down.
 

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Dude, I seriously hope you're gonna hot-tank those.:eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Im dismantling it down in my underground (where I do a lot of the work anyways) and when it gets down to the bare block, cleaning it myself (mechanically) and checking all the bearings etc upstaris. When the pistons come in, im bringing the bare, honed, painted block upstairs and assembling it there, complete with the head in my walk in closet, or room actually im moving into a 2 bedroom. In any case, the engine will be assembled upstairs, and brought down by hand (three guys should do it) where it will be swapped out for the 4G63 that's in there now.

The head will obviously be hot tanked! Looks like someone used some shitty oil in there!
:p
 

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Well...

Why make it carbed when it could be EFI? That'd make tuning a lot simplier, and you're running a Franken-Pony anyways. Can't you just use the Mitsu tranny and ECU giving you an option of using a DSM oritenated ECU-piggy back? Tuning w/carbs gave me headaches, and I wouldn't want anyone to do that if you're tuning for FI.

Howie~
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
DSM = FWD

Pony = RWD

Fact of the matter is Pony = carb. NO ECM. Making tuning easier? I'd have to wire in a '95 Elantra harness, and make that work with an '89 Sonata harness, for the sake of "simplicity" incorporate an ECM into a stock Pony harness?!? Poubelle. It takes 3 wires to keep a Pony running (Spikie can atest to that) and I intend to keep it that way.

I hate EFI. Every bit of it. Even MFI, which sucks because the metering plate gets caught up in residual carbon and oil deposits (I've owned enough VW to atest to that). I don't enjoy some stupid VLSI circuit telling a solenoid when to open and close, a goddamned 02 sensor (which I will have, purely to keep an eye on the stoichometric readings, especially after boost) gathering readings from a confused TPS and CPS which then work with a bunch of EGR solenoids to produce something that can all be incorporated within a well tuned carburator, using purely mechanical mechanisms... :rolleyes:

I believe in mechanical purity. I have a very good understanding of electronics and computer systems (which is what I am studying... for the last 6 years)
yet this notion of something other than pure analog feedback deciding when my engine should do this and when it should do that honestly disgusts me.


Also, if you've seen recent pictures of the 4G63 swap into my Pony, I've had quite enough BS with wiring... I'm gonna post up some side by side pics of a stock 1987 Pony 1400L compared to a 1985 Pony 1600GLS fitted with a 4G63... TOO MANY WIRES! Too many single point of failures.

EFI = Bullshit. Sorry to offend 99.995% of ppl here, but I'm gonna go the carburated way.

And make it work, the way God indended it to. :D
 

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Although its a hell of lot less complicated, which is a given, (and in this case there is no sense in bothering converting to EFI)

but in regards to EFI vs Carb?

Ill take EFI & the complications over kinda sorta having the fuel right, enough to run ~ok, until it needs more adjusting

Try boosting 12lbs on 10.3:1 compression ratio with a carb, lol.

Standalone would own in this sort of pickle, low fluff which is the good part of a carb while retaining EFI tuning accuracy
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I would have to look into this... but I don't want a billion bullshit sensors everywhere....
 

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They make blow-through carbies just for that reason. :D Check this out:

Blowthrough Carb How-To

^^^Prepping carbs for blow-through

Forced Induction - Datsun 1200 Wiki

Blow VS draw-through, intercoolers and box(for blow-through) setups.


I'll stick with the MOTEC and EFI due to the greater benifits it holds(logging, strange inputs for whatever sensors you can think of, handy outputs for exhaust strangulation and a throttle kicker/electronic BOV re-route to the exhaust manifold etc etc etc) BUT, the simpler the system is, truth is the less likely it is to fail.

This is the advantage that the old-school setups have over the more efficient and tunable EFI. Either way you lose something, it depends on what you're willing to sacrifice.
 

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For all the carb-efi arguments...

How come a VW 16v builds more power, easier with carbs, then with itb's? And why do people switch from efi to carbs when you start to drag race alot?


Ooh boy this could go on for days..

Oh Jed, kill them all when the beast runs. Carbs are the way to go if you want to go fast. **** reliablilty,thats why there is a flathead and a phillips in the glove box. Too much stuff to go wrong with efi.
 

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^^^The same question can be asked, why do the fastest circuit cars use EFI and not carburetion when the rules allow for it. Darcy Russel's Viper Racecar uses EFI, so do SuperGT cars(the fastest production series on the planet) The HKS drag car and the current holder of the fastest 4WD record also use EFI. In all its the choice of the builder and what he or she wants, and, what he or she is more familiar with. Together with the event class rules, that's what the decision gets made on usually.

Personally I prefer EFI for sporting use and carbs for road use(I like the sound of tuned length trumpets coupled with a stack LOL) The carbs tend to react faster for some reason, but running big power and very high VE on a turbocharged 4-cylinder, you want the added safety that EFI can provide.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
**** EFI ... I 've got 2 of these badass motherfuckers coming soon! ALMOST perfectly jetted for my application. I may have to adjust a few things... but, belive me, in a week...

x2

Weber D45 DCOE... that's right, feeding the beast. The Rochester units, well i'll put them up on eBay to offset the (horrendous) cost of these units.

You'll see more pics of the progress, as I have every intention to have this engine assembled and ready by april.

I got a few cams selected, cam gears in the works (Jerkitt will be the guinea pig ;) ) and a few other surprises... I have the main bearings in the trunk, the pistons selected, and a headder idea in my head.

Let's get movin'... got 6 months to assemble this motherfucker... then in early May I want to put it in and take it to Wasaga on my first cruise!
Done son!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I've aquiered two 45 weber DCOE's allready, and James has a equal length turbo manifold... it's underway folks! Hope to rip pisons out soon, I also have new clevite main crank bearings! Enough talk, more work!

This week: Destroy the EFI manifold for it's flange, save the coil pack, throw the rest out.

gotta go! (engine awaits!)
 

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carb vs fi

i prefer carburetors also - couldn't help but get involved in this conversation - i swapped out my tpi on my 86 iroc for an edelbrock 600cfm carburetor - went from an 18 second 1/4 mile on my stock 305 to a 16.5 with a carburetor and edelbrock intake. Then i changed the jets on when i went to the 350, and again when i swapped in the 400 parts to make it 383. Make those changes with TPI? or any other kind of FI?... lol yeah right... Ill just buy stock in silicon valley while i keep going back to reprogram my ECM every time i make a change to my car... sigh

oh and 'Blown carburetor engines' are usually super charged anyways due to the compression taking place after the fuel and air are mixed rather than before... so you dont have to use an awkward bonnet on the carburetor... Turbo'd/carb'd engines produce very unpredictable power bands also... A twin screw supercharger sitting under a carburetor produces a very predictable power band... very simple... also eliminates the need for new floats that are needed for blow through turbos... (the floats only need an adjustment instead on SC) but this is the NA forums... what the heck?!

either way - the carb or fi system needs to be properly tuned for the application. Tractor pulls and top fuel dragsters/rail cars are carb'd ... ;p It's a matter of personal preferance.

i can give you schematics on how to build a carburetor synchronizer if you need... (for syncing the vacuum on two separate carbs... ie. High Idle etc...) Ive used this one for synchronizing the 2 carbs on my Honda 400 and also added another row recently to help a friend tune a 6 pack on a hemi

cheers,
trev
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Well, im moving apartments friday, and the 4G64 is allready on the balcony... so it's gonna get its' own room, table, tools, time, and with my tax refund, PISTONS!!

Look for this to be updated soon.
 
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