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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here's the question:

If you're running the Turbo Stage 2, and plan on running a direct port nitrous system, should the cam be upgraded? I know that it is safer for nitrous if the ingnition timing is retarded, but I don't want to screw anything up with the turbo while running 8 degrees more lift than stock... do you all think that those three (turbo, N2O, and Elantra GLS cam) should be a problem?


<hr noshade width=60% size=1 align=left>are you racing you mom's car?
 

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I think when you run the stage 2, you might not want a fogger setup that may be too much. I'm going to run a fogger, with a progressive controller, but thats all I am going to be running to keep up with the turbos. Nitrous cams normally have wider lobe seperation and as far as duration at .050 they are a little less radical than a NA cam. When running a serious nitorus setup its the lobe seperation and the .050 duration that you want to watch. When running a small block with fogger nitrous or any serious setup, go with 112 or better in lobe seperation. With a double over head cam you have to adjust each cam to achive maximum effectivness.


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Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 02/06/2002 8:23:02 PM
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
a little out of my league, but thank you for the reply... I know that you described the best cam, but hypothetically would it be better or worse to buy a new cam over stock?

The nitrous system that I am interested would be only appr 100 hp, but the fogger setup for safety with detonation issues... I wouldn't want anything over 200 hp which is the smallest "kit" available for a fogger N2O setup (50hp jets per cylinder... at least that is how I understand it please correct me if I am mistaken)


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-

Remember that the ECU is FULLY programmable and will EASILY be able to accomodate nitrous - also remember that you don;t have to go the FULL 55shot or 65shot or whichever kit you plan on installing - I would personally install it with a smaller burst at first and evaluate the results in stages until you are happy with the results.




<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>Tiburon Turbo 350KW and 700NM AKA Black Monster
 

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There are some other things you may want to consider... With a turbo setup, the biggest "detriment" to performance is heat. Cooler air is more dense, so when it's coupled with adequate fuel (cold air requires more fuel) you get more power out of it. This is why intercoolers are so widely used...

Nitrous oxide coming from a 1200psi bottle is incredibly cold. You could instantly cause frostbite just by spraying it across your hand as fast as you can blink. This extreme cold, combined with the heat generated from a supercharger or turbocharger application can produce a larger amount of power gain than just the "nitrous HP" rating. You can very quickly overpower the internal components you're using...

What you are forgetting is that, unless you have adequate fuel, the "coldness" that the nitrous provides will not prevent detonation in any way.

Do the turbo first and if you're still not happy with the performance, THEN you can look into nitrous.

-Red-
 

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And using the programmable ECU included, you can control EXACTLY how much fuel you require at the press of a few buttons.




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Are you providing the nitrous interface wiring diagram, the programming interface cable and the LINK programmable software?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
unless you have adequate fuel, the "coldness" that the nitrous provides will not prevent detonation in any way.

-Red-
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>


What I was hoping was that by using a (maybe I should say wet) N2O system, it would inject not just N2O, but the comprable amount of fuel as well.

UFB - Ideally I would only want 25hp per cylinder... I do not want to exceed a maximum of 160hp total...
do you think that the internals included with your turbo stage 2 kit would suffice in accomodating these boosts?

and to repeat Red's ? - how adaptible is the LINK ECU to future upgraded components...

UFB you have mail...


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>are you racing you mom's car?

Edited by - scrtdrvr on 02/07/2002 11:30:09 AM
 

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The problem you're forgetting is that, with the huge amount of cooling you'll get, a 100hp direct-port shot of nitrous will likely add up to more than 100HP at the tires on a turbo setup.

Stage 2 is supposed to be 300 crank horsepower, add another 125 to that number and you suddenly have broken rods and shelled pressure plates.

-Red-
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
that's cool...


NOT.

I thought that you were implying that I was spraying 125hp plus of N2O without compensating with fuel...

My apologies...

Any suggestions on internals that could withstand that Red?

thanx for the help...


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When you're making more than 300 pounds of torque, the primary concern is the transmission pressure plate. Cheuk has conveyed that almost nobody wants to redesign the pressure plate (aftermarket-speaking) so the ONLY way to get around this is to use a multi-disk clutch like an HKS twin plate. These are expensive as hell and aren't very streetable...

The differential will not live through that abuse either; you'll have to go through Quaife or Kaaz for a replacement. Kaaz works on a clutched limited slip, whereas Quaife works on an autobiasing gear-driven limited slip. The Quaife has a much longer service life and better power handling. The prices are basically the same, so I suggest the Quaife.

The rods are easy, call up Crower and ask for a set -- they're $675 including shipping and you'll never break one (I think the rating is 600lb/ft at 8000 RPM's, which is like 914 horsepower) However that leaves another problem: if I remember correctly, the Ballistics pistons use their own press-fit pin (in order to work correctly with the stock rod pin bushings) Unfortunately Crower uses a floating pin bushing in their rods, which means you will need different pins for your pistons. You will have to ask UFB how to resolve that issue.

There are also fluid- and thermo-dynamics issues involved with that much power. Making 400+ horsepower means you're going to have a HUGE pressure buildup in the exhaust manifold if it isn't designed properly. Unless UFB is providing 40+mm external wastegates and a nice tubular manifold (not a log-style) then you're going to get nasty boost-creep problems and heat-soak problems. This could potentially lead to detonation and actually LESS power because the exhaust gasses will be unwilling to evacuate the cylinders. It can also cause premature failure of the manifold, the turbo, exhaust valves, exhaust valve guides and piston rings.

A lot of planning has to go into a buildup with that kind of power, most of it "Mr. Normal Joe Blow" didn't even know about. That's at least one of the reasons I threw the 'technical foul' flag on the UFB kit to begin with.

-Red-
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
well as of now I have officially withdrawn back to Normal Joe Blow status<img src=/images/forums/snitz/disapprove.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>... please forget all 200+ plus previous posts, I have just had the biggest brain overload <img src=/images/forums/snitz/oogle.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> followed by multiple frontal lobe flatulence<img src=/images/forums/snitz/eek.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>...

May I be excused... my brain is full...

<img src=/images/forums/snitz/cry.gif width=16 height=16 border=0>


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>are you racing you mom's car?
 

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off topic I know, but Red, are you a mechanical engineer??? that might the feild I will be going into...<img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


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http://projectgsi.wtfisup.com
Now let's put those Honduhs to shame!!
 

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KnOcker... I was. BME '88 Ga. Tech.

What Red is trying to convey is that there is a BIG difference between low power build up and high power build up >300 whp.

With bigger power... alot more stock parts are pushed to failure.

The crazies here are now talking about 800+ whp. <img src=/images/forums/snitz/eek.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> There is work being done to develop a sequential 6 speed drag tranny and many feel that the sturdy stock crank may no longer be adequte at this level.



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Dammit! 800 horsepower?<img src=/images/forums/snitz/eek.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> What are they thinking? "Yeah, uh, our 800HP Tiburon only ran a 14.8 because we lost traction all the way into 5th gear on 28" slicks" <img src=/images/forums/snitz/laugh.gif width=15 height=31 border=0>

Seriously though, 800 horsepower (doesn't even need to be WHEEL horespower) on a front wheel driver is gonna have as much traction as a blob of butter on a hot griddle.

-Red-
 

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Oh and as for the question regarding mechanical engineer, nope...<img src=/images/forums/snitz/tongue.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> I wish I could claim as such; the only formal training I have with this stuff is about 40 credit hours of physics, number theory, calculus, statistics and other stupid math electives. I love math, but I also love the 21 hours I took for psychology too <img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>

The physics classes I took delved into fluid dynamics towards the end; thermodynamics I know a little bit about, but only enough to get myself into trouble. <img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> Maybe one of these days I'll go back in and change my degree to ME, EE or something similar.

Originally I was a "Computer Science in Engineering" major.

-Red-
 

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Knocker, you certainly speak well enuf to b an inginer.

<---majoring in Mechanical Engineering.

Where in Canada are u knocker? I'm going to school in Flint, MI. Little school called Kettering University.

www.kettering.edu

it ain't cheap, but you will have a co-op job with a major corporation by your sophomore year.

I work for UPS as a co-op, and i'm starting my 3rd week there. I'm actually getting to be useful too!


Besides, if u go there, i have another Hyundai buddy, if you go B-section that is....



<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left><b>KORE Crew #19</b>

"It's not the contest between racers that really matters, but the abstract dialogue between the soul of a racer and his machine." -Racer X
 

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There are certain general topics that have not been addressed yet concerning running 300 plus HP on a daily basis:

1. Piston crown temperatures and controlling the temperatures

2. Heat rejection related to increased combustion temperatures, exhaust seat cooling. The possiable result could be warped valve seats.

3. Is the oem radiator able to handle the amount of heat rejection, combined with a/c condensor. Is there enough flow from the puller cooling fans.

4. Both the aftercooler and radiator have to be size to the climate and operating condictions for which it is being operated in.

5. Depending on the temperatures and the frequency of the high cylinder temps, may require the use of stainless valves

6. Does the OEM oil pump[ provide enough pressure and flow to supply the turbo and feed the rotating assembly on a daily basis.

7. Is there enough given surface area on the rods bearings and like wise pressure under consistently high boost situatons to maintain the proper hydrodynamic wedge required.

These are just some of the many things you have to be concerned when doing a high boost engine and expect it to live for a 1500 or more hours.
The area i am from we don't have congested traffic, so I may be fine running the system with know cooling problems, but the same kit in stop and go traffic in LA or Chicago, may not do as good.

Just some things to think about.


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Pistons,

Our pistons have been designed for a con-rod change/upgrade in mind and they can accomodate both a press fit pin aswell as a floating pin.

HOW?

The piston has the necessary slots in them to accept clips (to prevent the pins from coming out) and so you will be able to use our pins we supply you with for your con-rod upgrade - if you require new pins if you choose to go this route - we can offer yuo new pins at about $8 - 10.00
The pistons are a very high quality cast piston and we currently run these exact pistons in a 2.0 16V engine with a direct port 4 fogger 200HP NOS setup (one fogger in each intake port) and this poor engine has still not broken any pistons, BUT (BIG BUT!!) the tuning is SPOT ON! If you run lean at ANY stage you WILL melt down! If you detonate or any oother problems occur you WILL bend/break a rod or 4!





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HRD,

We have not experienced any problems with the valve seats.

Cooling is somewhat a factor in Seoul with turbos making around 250+ wheel hp. We usually run both fans all the time... just like UFB does in his car. But most require an oil cooler when above this number for daily driving. Many of the newer turbos now run an enlarged aftermarket radiator.

The oil pump seems to be good enough. I have only seen one oil pump failure... in a 550+ hp Tibby. As long as the turbo is not driven outside of its effeciency range, the stock pump seems to keep it cool enough.


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