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Discussion Starter #1
Alright I'm sick of this and it's starting to really make me mad. Time to lay it down for ALL to understand, as there seems to be quite a bit of information that's being kept hidden in the shadows.

For those of you thinking about buying the UFB kit, perhaps you should stop to think about the following:

We have had THREE previous options for super/turbocharger applications for the 2.0L engine before UFB.

One was Rimmer Engineering's supercharger kit. Rimmer is (eh, was) a well-known company with an OK background. They kit they produced worked in most cases, but used a very finicky fuel controller and several people experienced blown engines (Remember Shane from MHP? Also Chris from FXTreme) Others who ordered NEVER received the kits and had to fight for their money back.

Then we have Alpine, an unknown company from South America. These guys have no previos rep here in the states but suggested their kits are working "very well" on their cars.

The supercharger kit already appears to be a joke; 149WHP on an Elantra that already had bolt-ons? I can hit that with my N/A setup for a lot less headache. Then we have their turbo setup, which we ALSO know how it's going. Yay, a car that surges at constant speed, needed several retunings, detonates often, eats gas and still isn't making a lot of power yet.

Then we also had McIntyre's turbo setup (Dragon Fabrications) for a while. Even though it was "dealership sponsored" it still had almost ZERO market penetration. How many people got one of these kits? How many have you heard from? I only know of TWO kits out there, one in the twin-engine Tib and one in a Tib in Arizona. The guy in Arizona melted two pistons on his, so that leaves... Well, one kit remaining.

And now we have UFB (Ballistics Racing) from South America. Where could I possibly start with this?

Let's see... We have "guarantees" on a kit that has never shown any dyno results. We have a SINGLE GUY who is selling the kit who is also telling us how well it works on all the other cars. He keeps relaying how well these kits work on HIS car, although his car is using "significantly different" hardware than what the kit actually comes with.

Now we have him backtracking on power estimates (300 wheel horsepower, 300 crank horsepower, 280 crank horsepower, 200 wheel horsepower) as time goes on. Then we have him talking about prices going way up (I remember talk of this kit going for $2400 or thereabouts) Then we have him talking about easily programmable ECU upgrades plugging into the stock harness... Then needing it's own rewire job... Then being easily programmable and being fully sufficient for crazy power ALTHOUGH he doesn't want to use it on his own car.

Ok guys, here's the deal.

Anyone who has known me from FXTreme knows that I have a relatively short fuse, but that I'm always intent on making sure YOU GUYS don't get screwed. Anyone who has known Cheuk for any length of time also knows that he has ABSOLUTELY ZERO vested interested in Hyundais in general because he doesn't even own one, yet he provides a significant amount of information because he's surrounded by the racing development scene in Korea.

Something is seriously wrong with the advertising on this kit. Sure the parts list looks good; I suppose for $4000 it ought to. Normal "Joe User" isn't going to be able to install this equipment, no matter what you'd like to believe. You can supply videos, you can supply books and pictures, but you CANNOT supply experience. You also cannot supply the large quantity of specialized tools needed to pull this stunt.

If the kits produce 200WHP, then it's beliveable. If they're making 280HP at the crank, then it's possible... If they're making around 300HP at the tires EVEN ON NEW PISTONS, it's getting VERY questionable. There is too much involved to just slam out 300WHP.

If it were that simple, I'd already be there.

This isn't to say that UFB is evil and you shouldn't buy the kit, this is to make EVERYONE AWARE that it's not as easy as it seems. Hyundai has a relatively small aftermarket here in the States, and younger people seeking all those cool "Madd HorsepowaH" claims they see in the magazines sometimes become a bit too willing to believe your claims.

If you can claim 300WHP on your kit with any Joe Normal person installing it, I call severe amounts of BS. Not happening. Even if a reputable shop installed the kit and picked up 250WHP from it I'd be impressed, but even that has yet to be seen.

I want to remind everyone, we're dealing with a "prototype kit" that has never EVER been tested in the USA and has provided absolutely zero dynosheet documentation or other self-sustaining evidence of it's existance or power capability.

I suggested we use THIS thread for such continuing discussions, as I feel that "Joe Normal" Hyundai owner probably wasn't reading far enough down the last few posts to see all the potential problems...

-Red-
 

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I have never a owned a turbo vehicle, I have owned nitroused small blocks and enjoyed them a lot. I was considering buying a turbo kit only and only if who ever is the rep for the the UFB kit would install one and demonstrate the feasibility of the kit. For less than half that much I could have a 250-300hp progressive nitrous kit and know that the company namely Nitrous Express is a well respected company. I drive 70 miles total to work and back everyday, if I get a turbo kit it has to be reliable and proven. I would have to know the robustness of the Link programmable unit. I am not knocking the kit, but $4,000 is a good chunk of change to shale for a kit I have never seen or seen it installed here in the states to know the quality. Until I see it, I'll just keep making plans for the nitrous build up.


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Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 02/05/2002 2:42:25 PM

Edited by - HRD_Tiburon on 02/05/2002 2:44:07 PM
 

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Normally I stay out of this, but I will enter at my own risk...

Everyone knows how much respect I have for <b>red and cheuk and others</b> as far as information is concerned, and as far as high end mods are concerned. And I understand where he is coming from, yes we know RED has a short fuse, lol <img src=/images/forums/snitz/tongue.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> but there's one thing we must think about...

When you start naming off the past failures, yes failures that's what I consider them when not even ALPINE THEMSELVES could tune their system, well when you start naming them and then name the new company <b>UFB</b> it does not make them look good, even if you say something like:

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>This isn't to say that UFB is evil and you shouldn't buy the kit, this is to make EVERYONE AWARE that it's not as easy as it seems...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I just feel that this is something that should have first been dealt with the distributor of the kit in this case HYUNDAI PERFORMANCE if the company UFB themselves are not answering with dyno numbers as you have all requested. I don't think it's something to go off in public about, there are ways to have handled it before coming to this result, either <b>private message</b> those interested in the kit, or like I said, contacted ROB to find the info for you.

I really like this company for 3 reasons:

1-kit is very complete
2-the customer service up to now has been there, which never was there with RIMMER/ALPINE/DF, these guys sign online at least once a day, which is very helpful
3-they as many of us, are working towards making Hyundai a name to be reckoned with.

Yes some questions remain unanswered, but I thought it was harsh just to closely put them with the other companies which have let them down... Let's just try and understand them and where they're coming from, and I'm sure ROB will have answers as to why there are no dyno numbers and or UFB themselves will answer since that seems to be the biggest questions...

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Discussion Starter #4
Well you see, I'm naming Rimmer and Alpine and Dragon as three previous offerings for kits, AND as three seperate examples. I wouldn't call ANY of them failures; they all have their own "unique issues"...

Rimmer promised aroun 170HP, and they delivered. It had some quirks and issues, but most bolt-on kits do (just look at all the Civics in the ClubSi Got Boost forums with blown engines from bolt-on kits... It's "normal") Only when they started going out of business did they get really dodgy...

Dragon Fabrications kit worked very well, but almost nobody bought it. Wanna know the biggest reason why? Price! It's not that it was unreliable or unfeasable, it was that the kit cost 1/3rd of the total CAR cost.

Alpine Developments is another unique situation. We've heard OK things from them sparsely: Zorro likes her S/C but it needed a lot of fabrication work, Random overall is "pleased" with his turbo kit even though it's definately had it's own issues. But they're still in business AND the kits are inexpensive.

I don't associate any of that with "failure" but with quirks involved with any kit. The "problems" with the UFB kit come down to this:

<b>1.</b> Cost is substantial for a car that costs $12k-$15k brand new
<b>2.</b> Quoted power output has never been verified, documented and has changed several times
<b>3.</b> Quoted power potential is also significantly above what may be considered "safe" on the stock transmission (ANY transmission, not just auto)
<b>4.</b> The ECU options are widely unknown; if the only seriously unbiased and knowledgable ECU tuner in this forum (Cheuk) is having questions on the LINK, then so would I
<b>5.</b> This kit is being billed as "User installable"; a clutch might be considered as such, but there is NO way you want "user installable" pistons. This is something a qualified shop needs to do, unless you're very familiar with engines and disassembly-reassembly requirements and have proper tools to accommodate.

Perhaps the first post seemed to associate UFB with "past failures" but I don't believe as such... I would rather call them "past learnings" because they really were not failures -- they all worked for what they were. I suggest everyone USE that knowledge and apply it here.

We have a brand new undocumented company, offering an untested kit, quoting unverified and undocumented numbers for a considerable price -- all while saying it will be "user installable". Could it possibly be as good as it sounds? Yeah, there is the possibility...

Possibility is far from "guarantee"

-Red-
 

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I wanted to originally stay out too, but I had my concerns as well, and I am glad that Red posted.

He has very many valid points, and I don't think that is a private matter, when everyone interested in it, is openly reviewing everything on the boards.

Another thing to consider, is who actually buys the kits. Lots of people want to, lots of people say they will, but reality, once it gets down to, okay, send the money here, there just isn't really a buyer.

The few that do, will look at the boards, and think it over. If those concerns aren't expressed, they may get into something, that they really couldn't or shouldn't have.

And $4k is no little chunk of change. Anyone disagreeing can send me 3 or 4 of them and I would be glad to send them a thank you note (I have plenty left over from the wedding)

The hp numbers have changed, they went from wheel horsepower to crank, using the same numbers then changing. That immedietely worried me, but since I do not have the chunk of change (not as of yet, but anyone willing, who knows) I cannot afford to get one.

But, if I were able to afford it, like I said before, the completeness of the kit, and the tuning, would lead me to get this kit. Alpine, I would steer clear of, I would invest a lot more then $4000 trying to get the rest of the parts.

But I would have a professional install it for me like I said before. This is not something I would trust myself for. Invest an extra $2k, and get 5 times the length of use out of the engine, whatever. Or simply not causing any other problems.

Rimmer- when I heard of them, they were already bankrupt once. And BBB said they had lots of complaints, my first thing to stay away from.

Alpine- lots of problems from initial installs, even the two first test people, they put the wrong spark wires to the wrong plugs, hmm that worried me.

MCyntire. Methanol, nah... I think anyone that wants to refill anything, they will refill their NOS bottle.

UFB- complete kit, competative price. What would make me a buyer, is dynos, pictures of the kit installed, as well as possibly, having a kit sent over, and having it installed on someones vehicle and show us that it works.

What do you think of that UFB? Send a kit to rob and let's make sure it works on a tiburon. If you show that, yeah, the US tib, it works great, and holy ****, mad horsepower, but wait, it wasn't 260 whp stage one, it was only 245. Do you think people will be mad? That is crazy horsepower for the daily driver. Even the part time rice eater, that is a lot of power to rekon with.


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And user installable, with my tools: A ratchet screw driver thingy with like 20 tips (two sets of these) a small ratchet set, up to 12mm

A pair of pliers, and a rubber hammer.

I guess scissors and knives could count too, but that's about my limit for tools, and the sawzall I borrowed to make my targa top


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I'm sorry RED, yes you're correct, I think the word "FAILURE" was too much. And I do understand the concerns, maybe it's just miscomunication, since Rob sees the questions everyone wants, and may not have realized it, so hopefully this post will help in acquiring your answers. I think it's a company we should help grow and not help come down and give up on Hyundai as growing tuners. And as far as the price, I don't know man, just cause we have HYUNDAIS doesn't mean it should be cheaper, I think the price is reasonable for what they are offering, just cause we have HYUNDAIS maybe it should be around 10k since their return won't be as big as HONDA turbos. I stand by some of REDS points and agree others here need those answers, so red <img src=/images/forums/snitz/thumbup.gif width=25 height=18 border=0> I hope it works and gets you those answers <img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


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Well, I for one am interested in the kit. I have longed for a kit that I can install myself, because I take a lot of pride in doing all my mods. I don't race, I don't show, but I am a gearhead at heart (and I don't work with power tools at work <img src=/images/forums/snitz/disapprove.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> )

Anyway, this kit looks complete, which was always my biggest fear -- taking my car apart and then realizing I needed 12 other parts.

However, I agree with Cheuk and Red with their apprehension, or would caution be a better word? It has not been proven or tested in the US; and I learned from the Alpine fiasco that it's always best to have a prototype to see where the bugs are. Thanks again Random!

Lucky for me, I have to wait until I save enough, which is early summer, so hopefully there will be a few proto-testers out there. I hope the kit is everything that is promised; but dynos, photos, and buyer testimonials go a lot farter than promises.

Just my $0.02,
ac



<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>My Car Page: http://www.geocities.com/acurtas/tiburon.html
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Normal "Joe User" isn't going to be able to install this equipment, no matter what you'd like to believe.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Definitely. I've taken apart a few engines just to fix specific things (gaskets, head work, etc), but I wouldn't attempt to install this myself. Plus the cost is prohibitive for the Hyundai market. I think a supercharger setup would be "user-installable" and much cheaper, but not many options for my Tiburon. I think I'll have to get something custom fitted. Is UFB making a supercharger as well? I must have missed that...


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/lashomb/sig3.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - coupe2k on 02/05/2002 5:01:01 PM
 

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Well stated Red. Thats why I didn't jump all over trying to work with UFB at the beginning. With the track record of other boost projects in the U.S. I decided not to jump into anything new until it had been proven to work well. When Alpine was starting out here, many including myself thought they were gods gift to man. Then I saw how the completely screwed up my car, and refuse to pay for it, or even answer my emails. Rimmer I had even started to talk to, but he totally bombed out as well. I would LOVE to see the UFB kit work out here, and see boosted beta engines all over the country. But I myself would like to see it installed first on a US spec car, and see what kind of numbers it can put out, and to see if its still running well after a few months of application. Until now, there has not been any boost application that has been proven to work with the U.S. Spec cars. Rimmer made a low HP product that didnt work 100% of the time. The Dragon set up is not really for Joe Consumer, and Alpine's systems have major issues, one of them being a lack of HP and compatibility with the US-spec cars.

Who knows, maybe Rob will install the UFB kit on his test car this week and it will dyno at 250WHP, and run off 13 second quarter mile passes, and at the end of a few months and hard driving, be as good as ever. However, with the track record of Turbo/SC kits in the US, I am in "wait-and'see" mode before I go telling everyone to get the kits.


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Concerning the Mcintyre Turbo setup, yes it was pricy, but that was the price you paid, to take the car to them, and have them install it and tune it for you car, so it was like $3800 for a installed turbo system, does not sound so bad now.

They just refused to take any money off if you wanted someone else to ship it.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>"Awwww! Gawd damn! My "H" is gone, Whats the point of owning a Hyundai if ya cant show it off?
 

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I'll jump in here as ONE of the Alpine Guys.

The turbo kit, as supplied and installed by them did not run as claimed, and did not produce the HP they claimed. 169hp and 167 torque. The Korean guys beat that using nothing but N/A power! Even after "retuning" the kit is not making any more power, but it is running "better". I say "better" because I honestly believe that no one out there would put up with the "quirks" I put up with. 2000 RPM idle 80% of the time. 25 MPG interstate and 19 MPG city. CEL's blinking daily. The alpine kit could be a good "starter" kit for someone who wants to build and improve on the kit, but it is by no means a complete kit, or something I would reccomend. At the current price Alpine is Charging $2500 plus shipping....you'd be better off building your own from scratch.

In regards to the UFB kit, Yes, the prices have move around a lot, but that is due to "retail markup" and "cost creep". As I found out, you always find you need "this" and "that" once the project gets started...and those parts add to the final cost. Granted...one would hope that the person building the kit took those parts/cost into consideration when first quoting, however, those first posts by UFB were somewhat off the kuff, when he claimed to build a 300 WHP kit for $2500, I sure didn't take that as gospel. I expected the price to go up and the HP to go down as the kit neared completion. Not that I didn't have faith in what UFB claimed. I'm just a realist. Things are rarely as cheap as first quoted, and modifications rarely make as much HP as quoted.

Seeing what the Alpine Kit includes for $2500, and what the UFB "stage 2" kit includes for $4000, I understand the price differences, and still consider the UFB kit a "fair" value for the price.

All of that being said. Before shelling out MY hard earned $$$, I would expect to see a version of this setup running in the USA, on a USA spec car....and a dyno sheet to back it up. I learned my lesson with my Alpine kit. If I had paid more than $1900 for the kit and the instal....I would be fairly pissed. As it is...in truth...I got what I paid for. A cheap kit and a poorly running car. Don't make the same mistake I made.

I also agree that swapping out pistions is not a "do it yourself" kind of project. Probably only 10 or 15 people on this board could do it properly. I'll be honest...I'm NOT one of them. Even with step by step instructions on paper with step by step diagrams...I'd rather have someone who KNOWS what he's doing do the install (red...I'll fly ya to Los Angeles for a weekend! <img src=/images/forums/snitz/moon.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>) even it it means paying $$$ for it.

I do suggest that each person out there who is considering buying a turbo, buy and read two books first.
Modern Engine Tuning by A. Graham Bell
and
Maximum Boost by Corky Bell for Turbo chargers
or
Supercharged! Design, Testing and Installation of Supercharger Systems
by Corky Bell

Those to (or three) books will give you the base of knowledge to know how deep you are getting yourself into buy buying a turbo or supercharger, and even contemplating the install yourself.

I do think that the "install" portion of the kit is fairly moot. I do not think that many people are really contemplating installing this themself. If they are...they know where their strengths and weaknesses are...or they damn confident!<img src=/images/forums/snitz/wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>

Personally...I'm waiting to see how the first UFB install goes before flaming anyone or anything, but I do understand RED's concerns, and I also think that it was a GOOD THING that it was brought out into the open. Hopefully, everyone out there with a credit card or cash burning a hole in their pocket thinks twice now. I'm not saying 'don't buy'. I'm just saying...think...and think hard. Then go do some research before spending your money.


Before you take my experience as the way Alpine does busines...ask Zorro or Yamaneko about their superchargers.

I know of only 2 other people in the USA with the Alpine turbo kits installed and running. I have yet to get dyno numbers from either....or feedback as to how they run.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>quote from 4DoorGL: <b><i>"Told you. Random is cool as hell in person, even if he is a dick on the net <img src=/images/forums/snitz/wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> (j/k)" </b></i>

Leave it to Random to Needlessly complicate things.

Edited by - random on 02/05/2002 7:25:30 PM

Edited by - random on 02/05/2002 7:26:21 PM
 

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I dont see why red is coming down so hard on ubf, and as for my self I am going to buy the kit in 6 to 8 mo, and Im going to install it my self, if it breaks, i'll take it appart and do it again, untill it works like it should, thats the only way any one is going to learn, I dont want to take my car and motor to a shop, who says that thell know any more about your motor than you do, and im betting about 8 out of 10 times that you bring you car to a shop they have never seen a tib let alone worked on one. So as far as I go I want to rip in to my motor brake it down and rebuild it so when something breaks I know whats wrong with it and I know how to fix it, thats all the fun in tunning right?<img src=/images/forums/snitz/tongue.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


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and now hopefully rob will be home soon so he can post and tell us when the first US install will be... <img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


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I think its wrong to paint UFB in the light of all the other FI f.uckups. The likes of Alpine, Rimmer & Dragon were given an initial chance which they screwed up royally.

I think most of you are going off half cocked and should reserve your opinions and learn patience.

Hindsight is 20:20, unfortunately foresight is not.


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Red, No matter how much you spout, people will get ideas in their heads and take 300whp as gospel and pretty much whatever the damn hell they please no matter how many guns you point at their head.

Some people will even try and make the kit work harder just to prove you wrong, some people are just like that, nothing wrong with them.

All I am saying is, you said your say, just sit back and relax have a brew, and see if you can hear the engine blowing and the cursing and your named mention, and then you and smiled "I told ya so".

Yes, I know you are trying to inform everyone so they dont make the mistakes, but someones gonna do it.

No reason for ya all to continue this bickering.

Atleast this time, if this kit is a big failure then we can all bitch at ROB :) And Red can get paid GOBS of money to fly all over the US and fix all the kits for everyone at robs expense :p

right?


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>"Awwww! Gawd damn! My "H" is gone, Whats the point of owning a Hyundai if ya cant show it off?
 

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<img src=/images/forums/snitz/laugh.gif width=15 height=31 border=0>

Sounds good to me. <img src=/images/forums/snitz/thumbup.gif width=25 height=18 border=0> Honestly, the turbo kit wont work for me, so it doesn't really bother me either way.<img src=/images/forums/snitz/laugh.gif width=15 height=31 border=0>




<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left><b>KORE Crew #19</b>

"It's not the contest between racers that really matters, but the abstract dialogue between the soul of a racer and his machine." -Racer X
 

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i cant wait to see UFB's reply to this post.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>"silly ricers never learn" - AutoBot
 

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Damn, and you wonder why people won't make **** for Hyundais.

Every time somebody has tried doing something good for the Hyundai aftermarket, everybody goes and rips them a new asshole. If I was a major company and I saw this, I'd say **** they Hyundai aftermarket.

As for the first US install, we're working to try and get a demo kit here in Vegas to install to stop all of this useless bitching.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>"Hey, if my prize is your foot up my arse... its still a prize.... " - <b>WhoopOi</b>

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Ok let me start off by saying that i never knew the Alpine Turbo kit had so many problems.The reason why im saying this is because my car goes in the shop in 3 weeks AND IM GETTING WORRIED NOW<img src=/images/forums/snitz/mad.gif width=16 height=16 border=0><img src=/images/forums/snitz/mad.gif width=16 height=16 border=0><img src=/images/forums/snitz/mad.gif width=16 height=16 border=0>
The only difference is that im not going to be installing the Head spacer,5th injector or the Unichip,instead im going with the 440cc injectors and S-AFC.
Im running on stock compression but running 6-7PSI on stock internals.My set-up is slightly different and hope to get a little higher number than what Random got with his Alpine Turbo kit!!
I HOPE MY SET-UP WONT RUN INTO ANY PROBLEMS<img src=/images/forums/snitz/eek.gif width=15 height=15 border=0><img src=/images/forums/snitz/eek.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>
Random what kind of CEL codes are you getting with the kit installed?
I never knew you confronted these problems?


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