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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gutting the cat part II

Aftermarket headder REMOVES the cat assembly... what is the issue with gutting the cat? Is it a performance issue? If it's legality, removing the cat and installing a headder is just as illegal!!


<hr noshade width=60% size=1 align=left>-Mike

2002 Champagne Elantra GLS 5sp
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Brendan, why don't you explain why so everyone understands. Don't just say no and close a topic without a reason. It only stimulates curiousity!


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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I also wanted to make note that removing a functioning catalytic converter is illegal unless it has sustained some type of phyisical damage. So buying a headder and relocating the catalytic converter is just as illegal and the fine is the same. Is this the reason why you say "don't do it" ?!!

Side note/question, I haven't looked, is it like the old hyundai's (I inherited a 1988 Excel 5-speed 5-door from my wife back in 94 but it's long gone) where there are 2 catalytic conveters?


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>-Mike

2002 Champagne Elantra GLS 5sp
2001 Black Grand Am GT sedan
 

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Jrh your right. Ok Gutting the cat will get you 1 hp more on the stock exhaust system, and make your car smell like rotten eggs, spew all kinds on nasties into the air etc etc. It's is also one hell of a fine if you get caught. Headders normally are replaced and a hi flow cat is installed in place of the stock cat unit hence legal, and full cat back exhaust system with it, which can get up to 12-14 hp with a proper intake and TB, on thier own they do nothing, many people have heard that gutting the cat helps performance but this was in the old days when the cat really was a huge restriction on the big block V8's, today it's the in/out of the pipes into the cat, not the cat itself that is a restriction. Most hi flow cats have a newer webbing and wider in/out to allow better flow than the stock units small exit. This must be done with an equal diameter back pipe and muffler all the way out, also headder or manifold down pipe and runners from the engine, in either case gutting the cat is just not a good idea and it has been discussed here before. Now that I have given my reasons I will lock this post before I hear 101 other questions unrelated to this.

OH I just saw the part about removing a functioning cat is illegal, well it is unless it is replaced by a superior unit, which most hi flow cats ARE, their webbing is normally of higher grade and can withstand higher temperatures than most stock units, hence they are legal, that and the OBDII sensors are still used, this is legal everywhere excpet in California where they have their own laws, and everything must be CARB legal even if it passes testing.


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Edited by - brendan on 02/08/2002 2:42:40 PM
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I don't know about Clalifornia, I am sure the laws are more strict there, anyway, if you were to go to a muffler shop in any state (not Cali?) and take your brand new car (less than 50K miles) completley un-altered and ask to replace the catalytic converter with a high flow one, unless you are doing somthing under the table you will be informed that this proceedure cannot be done because it is illegal to remove a functioning catalytic converter unless it has sustained physical damage or is malfuntioning, and if it is the DEALER is required BY LAW to replace it free of charge. Most shops will tell you this law. If you personally remove tha cat, roll up to a shop with a headder and no cat on your car, sure, they probbably will install a cat for you, but YOU have broken the law by removing it in the first place. This is not my opinion, this is the law!!!

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify, running with a headder with a cat is legal. Removing the cat in the first place is ILLEGAL!! (or gutting it!) I know the emissions laws very well, personally I think the laws on emissions are nearly useless especially when I see some idiot with an old heap just billowing smoke going down the road with an "emissions passed" sticker on it!!

<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>-Mike

2002 Champagne Elantra GLS 5sp
2001 Black Grand Am GT sedan

Edited by - Mike222002 on 02/08/2002 3:04:59 PM
 

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You broke an environmental law, but they will not come after you if you put another working cat on, if it is missing they'll screw you up where the sun shouldn't shine. Here and many places if you go to the shop with a cat, headders and ask them to do a cat back custom they'll do it, you have not altered the original and they will not be held responsable. If you just ask for a new cat they'll send you to your dealer, and it isn't free even then , different states have different laws, by-laws and ways around them, but none allow no cats unless there are special criteria marked for it.


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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
You broke an environmental law, but they will not come after you if you put another working cat on, if it is missing they'll screw you up where the sun shouldn't shine. Here and many places if you go to the shop with a cat, headders and ask them to do a cat back custom they'll do it, you have not altered the original and they will not be held responsable. If you just ask for a new cat they'll send you to your dealer, and it isn't free even then , different states have different laws, by-laws and ways around them, but none allow no cats unless there are special criteria marked for it.


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<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Regardless, it's illegal to remove a functioning catalytic converter, even if it replaced, removing it is illegal. I wasn't concerned with the legal aspects anyway... just wanted to know if anyone had done it etc... I had an old 2bbl 88 excel that I did this to, but obly because it had become clogged, and after I did this, there was significant gain. Other Excel drivers looked at me funny when I dusted them. (I had altered the intake as well!) Also since day one there was a hill that this car could not go more then 53mph up by the crest, no matter how fast you approach... after the alterations I could easily hit 75-80 like a normal car!!! I had one woman clap as I passed her in the mountains with it... <img src=/images/forums/snitz/laugh.gif width=15 height=31 border=0> .. anyway that was a differnet car, just wondered if anyone had done this to a newer one, I never said I was going to do this to my new car either... just wondering!! <img src=/images/forums/snitz/oogle.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>-Mike

2002 Champagne Elantra GLS 5sp
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Federal law requires that all motor vehicle manufacturers warranty ALL emissions equipment for 10 years or 100,000 miles. This was passed in 1986. If your stock catalytic converter fails, they must replace it for free. It is also illegal to OPERATE a motor vehicle with a rated cargo capacity of less than 501 pounds, built after 1967, without a catalytic converter. It is not illegal to remove a catalytic converter as long as the vehicle is NEVER operated without it in place. You can go to a shop and have the cat. replaced there because the vehicle is not being operated while the cat. is off the car. On cars registered in CA, or the Northeast states, you cannot make ANY modifications to emissions equipment unless the modification has been approved by C.A.R.B. and has an Exemption Order number clearly stamped on it.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>Later,
Aaron Britt
Events Coordinator, Las Vegas F-body Assoc.
'97 Trans-Am
'96 Elantra GLS
"The shortest distance between two points is a straight line........but, it's not as much fun."
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Federal law requires that all motor vehicle manufacturers warranty ALL emissions equipment for 10 years or 100,000 miles. This was passed in 1986. If your stock catalytic converter fails, they must replace it for free. It is also illegal to OPERATE a motor vehicle with a rated cargo capacity of less than 501 pounds, built after 1967, without a catalytic converter. It is not illegal to remove a catalytic converter as long as the vehicle is NEVER operated without it in place. You can go to a shop and have the cat. replaced there because the vehicle is not being operated while the cat. is off the car. On cars registered in CA, or the Northeast states, you cannot make ANY modifications to emissions equipment unless the modification has been approved by C.A.R.B. and has an Exemption Order number clearly stamped on it.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>Later,
Aaron Britt
Events Coordinator, Las Vegas F-body Assoc.
'97 Trans-Am
'96 Elantra GLS
"The shortest distance between two points is a straight line........but, it's not as much fun."
http://www.speedcraving.com/i8acobra/flag.gif">
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

EVERY muffler shop I have ever been to tells me they will NOT remove a factory catalytic converter from a vehicle that has less than 50K miles on it unless it has sustained some type of physical damage!! FURTHERMORE it IS illegal to remove or operate a vehicle with less than 50K miles with anything other than the ORIGINAL catalytic converter. Muffler shops will NOT remove a factory catalytic converter off of a vehicle that has less than 50K miles on it unless the vehicle is trailered in! I have been modding cars for a long time now and have some friends that work at a local muffler/performance shop, they tell me this very same thing, as will every law abiding muffler shop.

Lastly, as MOST people on here, I cannot say I obey every law that pertains to motor vehicles or traffic, my purpose in the post was to find out if anyone has gutted their cat or not etc.... Not a lecture/debate on local emissions laws etc… I already am familiar with all my local emissions laws, as are most of you THAT STREET RACE, or at least post here and say that you did.

<img src=/images/forums/snitz/approve.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>-Mike

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thats wierd, all the muffler shops in NY have no problem with a new high-flow cat..... and i'm pretty sure that they follow the law too so that crap probably only happens in cali or where ever you are from
too bad for you i guess....<img src=/images/forums/snitz/uhh.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
thats wierd, all the muffler shops in NY have no problem with a new high-flow cat..... and i'm pretty sure that they follow the law too so that crap probably only happens in cali or where ever you are from
too bad for you i guess....<img src=/images/forums/snitz/uhh.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>http://home.talkcity.com/SpeedwayDr/speedracer/90logosm.gif"width=90> [img]http://samadjawed.freeservers.com/images/frontview_garage.jpg"width=180> [img]http://home.talkcity.com/SpeedwayDr/speedracer/90logosm.gif"width=90>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I am from Colorado, and all I'd have to do is take apart the exhuast, take the dissasemmbled exhaust to the shop in my other car and have them do whatever with it then slap it back on!! Still illegal, but I don't consider it an issue! <img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>-Mike

2002 Champagne Elantra GLS 5sp
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I was only telling you what the Federal laws written by the EPA require. Colorado may have their own laws. States are allowed to make stricter laws than what the Feds require. This is how CARB is allowed to have those rediculously strict emissions laws. Clark County (Las Vegas) Nevada uses the Federal laws, so we get off easy.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>Later,
Aaron Britt
Events Coordinator, Las Vegas F-body Assoc.
'97 Trans-Am
'96 Elantra GLS
"The shortest distance between two points is a straight line........but, it's not as much fun."
<img src="http://www.speedcraving.com/i8acobra/flag.gif">
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I was only telling you what the Federal laws written by the EPA require. Colorado may have their own laws. States are allowed to make stricter laws than what the Feds require. This is how CARB is allowed to have those rediculously strict emissions laws. Clark County (Las Vegas) Nevada uses the Federal laws, so we get off easy.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>Later,
Aaron Britt
Events Coordinator, Las Vegas F-body Assoc.
'97 Trans-Am
'96 Elantra GLS
"The shortest distance between two points is a straight line........but, it's not as much fun."
http://www.speedcraving.com/i8acobra/flag.gif">
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Cool.

Anyway... so then no one's done it huh?

EDIT: BTW you suck for living in Vegas, <img src=/images/forums/snitz/wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> that's my wife and I's favorite vacation spot!


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>-Mike

2002 Champagne Elantra GLS 5sp
2001 Black Grand Am GT sedan

Edited by - Mike222002 on 02/10/2002 08:15:11 AM
 

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No ones done what? gutt the cat, no. As I said it won't help much on the newer cars, newer cats are not as restricetive as the older ones and with out a free flowing exhaust after it the results will be negated. As much as headders and hi flow cats are a grey area gutting it is highly illegal and won't benifit performance, lets just say me and several others have driven at the track sans exhaust and cat to see and no torque sucks.


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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
No ones done what? gutt the cat, no. As I said it won't help much on the newer cars, newer cats are not as restricetive as the older ones and with out a free flowing exhaust after it the results will be negated. As much as headders and hi flow cats are a grey area gutting it is highly illegal and won't benifit performance, lets just say me and several others have driven at the track sans exhaust and cat to see and no torque sucks.


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<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That's what I was looking for. It was more of a performance question. Not trying to start trouble. Thanks. BTW I plan on the headder for sure... but I have questions that a search didn't answer so I may post a headder question.

-Mike


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>-Mike

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If your worried that your shop won't replace a fuctional cat just puch a hole in it before you take it to the shop. Now you have phisical damage and a replacement highflow cat that you already purchased.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>Stop honking I'm on the Phone!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If your worried that your shop won't replace a fuctional cat just puch a hole in it before you take it to the shop. Now you have phisical damage and a replacement highflow cat that you already purchased.


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>Stop honking I'm on the Phone!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>


<img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> hmmm... I've NEVER done anything unlawful like that <img src=/images/forums/snitz/smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> <img src=/images/forums/snitz/wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> <img src=/images/forums/snitz/wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0> <img src=/images/forums/snitz/wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0>


<hr width=60% noshade size=1 align=left>-Mike

2002 Champagne Elantra GLS 5sp
2001 Black Grand Am GT sedan
 
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